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Free will versus Determinism
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Free will versus Determinism
The following comes from my participation on the international forum of philosophy and it summarizes my thinking on the subject up for debate:
Being an agent implies will very much so, I agree, and that will is my one of course, but not necessarily that that will is free just because its my one in some loose sense, as if I were its first and last cause...in what sense could it be ? because one has the impression that soft coercion from patterns all around us, is not important on how we are shaped by them?
Or because one is not even aware of most of this conditioning patterns ?
Its will free because I "agree" with it, or rather the opposite because I
can´t disagree with it given the specific circumstances in which I will is it conditioned ?...
...of course what I come to think is caused efficiently by me, it happens just as efficiently, something else, caused me to think what I come to think in my own so called "free" thinking...we just may not disregard this last detail...the chain of cause once "materialized" is very specific on how it happens. (the collapse of the wave function for instance)
Obviously that´s why such thing its called cause in the first place !
The contradiction rests on disregarding the efficient previous cause for the efficient cause of my own thinking, which is me only in its last final sequence, and then accepting that as a sufficient boundary for freedom of choice to be considered true...an ingenious illusion but hardly a fact !
I mean given the circumstances could you wish otherwise ? I don´t think so...even the sense of selfness is a phenomenological construction in the brain on a close observation...we are way past to that kind of linear perception on how world works, or at least we should be...anyway, such is life !...
Last but not least it ads that tossing a coin for decision making is a very determined way of choosing...It means you always chose accordingly with the result and cannot do otherwise, given the precise rules of the game...
So the efficient cause is very determined indeed even if the result in action is unpredictable...and here we have another perfect example of how illusions take the best of our rationality right out through the window...
Best Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE
Being an agent implies will very much so, I agree, and that will is my one of course, but not necessarily that that will is free just because its my one in some loose sense, as if I were its first and last cause...in what sense could it be ? because one has the impression that soft coercion from patterns all around us, is not important on how we are shaped by them?
Or because one is not even aware of most of this conditioning patterns ?
Its will free because I "agree" with it, or rather the opposite because I
can´t disagree with it given the specific circumstances in which I will is it conditioned ?...
...of course what I come to think is caused efficiently by me, it happens just as efficiently, something else, caused me to think what I come to think in my own so called "free" thinking...we just may not disregard this last detail...the chain of cause once "materialized" is very specific on how it happens. (the collapse of the wave function for instance)
Obviously that´s why such thing its called cause in the first place !
The contradiction rests on disregarding the efficient previous cause for the efficient cause of my own thinking, which is me only in its last final sequence, and then accepting that as a sufficient boundary for freedom of choice to be considered true...an ingenious illusion but hardly a fact !
I mean given the circumstances could you wish otherwise ? I don´t think so...even the sense of selfness is a phenomenological construction in the brain on a close observation...we are way past to that kind of linear perception on how world works, or at least we should be...anyway, such is life !...
Last but not least it ads that tossing a coin for decision making is a very determined way of choosing...It means you always chose accordingly with the result and cannot do otherwise, given the precise rules of the game...
So the efficient cause is very determined indeed even if the result in action is unpredictable...and here we have another perfect example of how illusions take the best of our rationality right out through the window...
Best Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE
Filipe de Albuquerque- Coordenador Principal
- Mensagens : 63
Data de inscrição : 25/06/2009
Idade : 50
Localização : Coimbra
Re: Free will versus Determinism
Could it be otherwise ?
Hell no !!!
Hell no !!!
Filipe de Albuquerque- Coordenador Principal
- Mensagens : 63
Data de inscrição : 25/06/2009
Idade : 50
Localização : Coimbra
Free will is ours or no?
Free will is really ours, that God is the only being to possess it? That is, assuming that human beings are designed to perfection, where would our free will, since there is only one way forward,
Best regards,
Best regards,
Renato- Participante Dedicado
- Mensagens : 175
Data de inscrição : 27/06/2009
Idade : 53
Localização : Brasil
Re: Free will versus Determinism
Filipe de Albuquerque escreveu:The following comes from my participation on the international forum of philosophy and it summarizes my thinking on the subject up for debate:
I mean given the circumstances could you wish otherwise ? I don´t think so...even the sense of selfness is a phenomenological construction in the brain on a close observation...we are way past to that kind of linear perception on how world works, or at least we should be...anyway, such is life !...
Best Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE
De fato. Mas a questão é: se o "eu" foi construído pela mente, como se irá desconstrui-lo?? Não é o "eu" que é o gerador de ilusões??
Renato- Participante Dedicado
- Mensagens : 175
Data de inscrição : 27/06/2009
Idade : 53
Localização : Brasil
Re: Free will versus Determinism
Olá Renato ! Efectivamente a nossa experimentação do mundo enquanto processo epifenomenal cognitivo, que circunscreve incontornavelmente toda a vivência humana da "realidade" e do seu conhecimento possível, ás condicionantes dos processos ditos mentais, das suas especificidades particulares e à emergência de efeitos irredutíveis como o "Self", é em si mesma documento inequivocamente esclarecedor das profundas condicionantes para um conceito de Liberdade amplamente consensual...Estudos recentes nas Neuro-ciências tem vindo a confirmar as históricas duvidas sobre a validade efectiva da ideia do livre arbítrio da acção humana, sendo ate mesmo já possível, prever e antecipar decisões com uma antecedência de 10 segundos, antes que o autor destas, delas possa tomar plena consciência...é assim !
Filipe de Albuquerque- Coordenador Principal
- Mensagens : 63
Data de inscrição : 25/06/2009
Idade : 50
Localização : Coimbra
Re: Free will versus Determinism
Filipe de Albuquerque escreveu:Olá Renato ! Efectivamente a nossa experimentação do mundo enquanto processo epifenomenal cognitivo, que circunscreve incontornavelmente toda a vivência humana da "realidade" e do seu conhecimento possível, ás condicionantes dos processos ditos mentais, das suas especificidades particulares e à emergência de efeitos irredutíveis como o "Self", é em si mesma documento inequivocamente esclarecedor das profundas condicionantes para um conceito de Liberdade amplamente consensual...Estudos recentes nas Neuro-ciências tem vindo a confirmar as históricas duvidas sobre a validade efectiva da ideia do livre arbítrio da acção humana, sendo ate mesmo já possível, prever e antecipar decisões com uma antecedência de 10 segundos, antes que o autor destas, delas possa tomar plena consciência...é assim !
Ok.
Isso do ponto de vista das Neurociências. De um outro ponto de vista: um sujeito está andando na rua e leva um tiro; de qual livre-arbítrio ele desfruta?? E o que atirou?? goza de algum livre-arbítrio??
Algumas proposições simples...
1- O ser humano tem livre-arbítrio
2- O livre-arbítrio pertence somente ao Espírito
3- Deus tem livre-arbítrio?
Abçs
Renato- Participante Dedicado
- Mensagens : 175
Data de inscrição : 27/06/2009
Idade : 53
Localização : Brasil
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